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I don't understand why some games are so heavy these days.

john123
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 03:16:37

I'm talking about Allan Wake 2, there is lots of people bashing this game on YouTube and Internet, I think these gamers are deluded and blind people angry with their expensive toys, they think "ohh, the game is not optimized, devs are lazy, etc".

I think all this is intentional, Microsoft's Visual Studio program creation software is increasingly heavier, and the applications that are created and compiled in them are even heavier than in other versions, and finally new Windows versions are increasingly heavy, and the game engines that are created in these MS VS development tools and compilers are ultra heavy and the games made on them are even worse, and developers who work for these big companies maybe receive money from GPU makers or have shares on the stock exchange, so they make it intentionally slow, then they'll say, "a new GPU, or console, is coming that can run this game better"....

If you take games with the best graphics today like Alan Wake 2, Cyberpunk 2077, Red Dead Redemption, etc, if you look closely, it's almost always the same thing, everything seems a bit plastic, the same unrealistic stuttered animation and behaviour that look like from games from 2001, etc. They are not that better than Crysis 1, if you put in Crysis 1 some textures mods and use Reshade, done, its already next gen now. The only game that I think looked real for me, was DriveClub from 2014, but because of the coloration/post process effects, it had these grayish color tone, and these are not hard to achieve in any engine if you understand about shaders and effects, and use tools like Reshade, etc.

Not even CopperCube is fast, I was looking at the PSX game Vigilante 2 OS, I can't get visual effects and behavior like that in CC, unless I modify or create new CC scripts, and this will make it heavier, and see that this game ran on a PSX, with a very weak processor and how much memory? 2 or 4 MB? But you can say, "ohh but PSX dont have Windows running on background, Internet, devices, etc".

I think this PC platform is a giant scam and a money trap, a resource sucker, It's slow even to open pages on YouTube, if I knew programming, I would take an old-tech tool, like Blitz3D and retrofit it, working most on easy of use part, to make it friendlier or smarter, or maybe another engine, something way better, like CryEngine 2, doing the same thing as I said, and make it able to export to Raspberry Pi hardware (not linux itself) or another platform, that are out of this PC trap thing.

See, my "computer" is an i5 8250u notebook, with an iGPU 620, that is, it is extremely weak, I gave up on desktop PCs, and dont have one, as they are big, noisy and expensive, I bought a notebook for be mobile, and when I travel, I bring it along with me. So, my notebook is extremely weak for games, anything over 2012 it already struggles to run, I have to use the Lossless Scaling app to improve the performance of old games like Crysis, Deserts of Kharak, Far Cry 2, etc., yes, I know... it's laughable, but I'm not interested in spending money on a more expensive notebook (I don't even currently have the money for that), much less a PC, which I see as outdated tech even if its powerful, and I'm also not interested in new games, nothing, only these and maybe some N64 and GBA emulators. Maybe some newer like NFS or Forza Horizon, all too heavy that don't run on my nb.


Guest
Guest
Quote
2023-10-30 03:58:40

You know Puppy Linux does exist...

https://puppylinux-woof-ce.githu...


john123
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 04:38:52

If I were to spend time with Linux, I would prefer Windows 7 or even Windows XP. Maybe Android for PC, or notebook in my case.


luposian
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 07:50:32

john123 wrote:
Not even CopperCube is fast, I was looking at the PSX game Vigilante 2 OS, I can't get visual effects and behavior like that in CC, unless I modify or create new CC scripts, and this will make it heavier, and see that this game ran on a PSX, with a very weak processor and how much memory? 2 or 4 MB? But you can say, "ohh but PSX dont have Windows running on background, Internet, devices, etc".

I think this PC platform is a giant scam and a money trap, a resource sucker, It's slow even to open pages on YouTube, if I knew programming, I would take an old-tech tool, like Blitz3D and retrofit it, working most on easy of use part, to make it friendlier or smarter, or maybe another engine, something way better, like CryEngine 2, doing the same thing as I said, and make it able to export to Raspberry Pi hardware (not linux itself) or another platform, that are out of this PC trap thing.

See, my "computer" is an i5 8250u notebook, with an iGPU 620, that is, it is extremely weak, I gave up on desktop PCs, and dont have one, as they are big, noisy and expensive, I bought a notebook for be mobile, and when I travel, I bring it along with me. So, my notebook is extremely weak for games, anything over 2012 it already struggles to run, I have to use the Lossless Scaling app to improve the performance of old games like Crysis, Deserts of Kharak, Far Cry 2, etc., yes, I know... it's laughable, but I'm not interested in spending money on a more expensive notebook (I don't even currently have the money for that), much less a PC, which I see as outdated tech even if its powerful, and I'm also not interested in new games, nothing, only these and maybe some N64 and GBA emulators. Maybe some newer like NFS or Forza Horizon, all too heavy that don't run on my nb.

You, sir... have absolutely NO concept of computers, programming, technology, or how it all works. You like to rattle off your complaints in things you have no understanding of.

Nothing makes you happy, so you complain about everything. You don't understand the things you talk about, so you complain. All you do is complain and gripe and whine.

If all you want to play are N64/GBA games, then buy one and be happy! Stop complaining on a forum where people use Windows, we DO program, and we make the best of the engine we're using (CopperCube) and don't complain about it incessantly!

To everyone else: I know, I know... don't feed the trolls... [sigh]


okeoke
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 11:00:03

I think all this is intentional

No, it's not. From one side, structure and coding-wise these modern games are very complex systems, as all IT systems in general. From other side, you need to develop and release those as fast as possible, since you're paying for the development (salaries, bills, office rent, software subscriptions and etc), and technologies are evolving so fast, your game may becomes outdated during its development in case you're not fast enough. Considering this, it's more profitable to release a not finished product, and then fix it with patches in case the game sales.

PSX game Vigilante 2 OS

Great example, considering it was barely running at 25 fps on the original ps1 hardware:)

Not even CopperCube is fast

It's not "fast". CopperCube only handles 60 fps in case you don't add any more or less heavy logic. Adding 10 enemies with regular actor behavior drops fps in half. Considering you have to code all logic like AI/pathfinding and etc. it's very hard to make any more or less complex game to run at 60 fps.

I would take an old-tech tool, like Blitz3D and retrofit it, working most on easy of use part, to make it friendlier or smarter

and heavier.

Also try using bb IDE nowadays. Or code in basic. It almost feels like you're trying to ride a bicycle with flat tires uphill while sedated, and listening to single happy hardcore track on a loop.

Also amount of tutorials and documentation, that you can find for the old engines is much smaller you can find for the modern ones. You will not get any support, since they are not supported by anyone. Same with game engine bugs - for example godot releases bug fixes regularly. Last version of BB was released 10 years ago, and all the bugs it had are still there for 10 years.

One day your game simply stops working on a modern hardware, and you have to refactor 10 years old code in order to make it somehow run again. You also have to build it with a compiler from the same age, which in its turn might not work on a modern system. No one will install windows XP or buy Pi and spend days setting up correct library versions to play your game.

There are other reasons, like BB only supports directX 7.0, which most of the streamers will not be able to capture with their fancy modern software. Which means you will not get any promotion from streamers - so you can find 1000 reasons to run a modern game engine instead of the old one.

I'm not sure there this myth about how games were optimized in the past is coming from. When I was a kid, a game was considered "running fine" in case it was playable. In most cases it means running at 640x480 or in some cases 800x600 resolution, with 20-30 fps with low or medium settings.
Actually, one of my favorite games Gothic was released in 2001. I believe I played it around 2003. The version 1.0.0 which I had, was an unplayable mess. I still remember falling through the ground, getting stuck into textures, AI soft locks during certain cutscenes, broken quests and etc. I believe, it was barely running with 2 digits fps on my celeron 1700 with 128 mb of ram and geforce 2. But it was an awesome game.
Around the same time I was playing GTA: VC - which is a great game too. The city without any textures was barely able to load right in front of the car if you were driving fast. And 20-30 fps with 640x480 resolution.

I remember reading an interview with Li Xiaofeng aka Sky, one of the best WC3 player of his time (at least I believe, it was his interview). He was talking about how he started playing competitive games, and the first game he was playing was starcraft bw. His PC was so slow, that it was not able to handle too many units on the map, so he only played 4-pool zerg rush to finish his games faster.


okeoke
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 11:02:45

What I'm trying to say, most games, especially AAA were always like that since the beginning of gaming industry. Probably, 10-15 years ago, people care a bit more about optimization since everything was released using physical media, but from the other hand the games and technologies around them were much simpler.

These modern AAA titles are not the only games you can play - there are dozens of great indies, which will run on a toaster, and have far better gameplay than the games you've mentioned.

Or probably, it's just a "gaming impotence". If you don't like playing games anymore - it's fine to stop, even if you enjoyed it all your life - just do something else for some time, and it will come back (or will not).


Guest
Guest
Quote
2023-10-30 13:19:41

@okeoke

love the fact, that CopperCube actually would let us recreate such classic one nowadays ...

🔎︎



okeoke
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 13:53:02

Guest

If we're talking falling through textures and uncompletable quests - sure:) Also don't tell Gomez you know Lee and it will be fine.


john123
Registered User
Quote
2023-10-30 22:28:17

okeoke, you know the subject. What old engine would be better for a retrofit, I know that Blitz3D is DX7 and this creates problems, there some project to retrofit it to DX9, but its looks like they changed something, but I want to know others engines like Quake, or even others that you know are easy to understand and work with and are very lightweight and well supported, maybe with DX9 or OpenGL support.

I don't know programming, but I wanted to learn Blitz3D because it was easy to understand, even I, who don't know how to program, understood what a project said, I was thinking about learn and creating small tools in it, and using them to help with game development, like a package to help. The intention is not monetary, just to pass time.


Guest
Guest
Quote
2023-10-30 23:18:36

Dark Basic Pro is DX9, I believe.


VP
Guest
Quote
2023-10-31 13:36:52

Something worth considering are all the engines that have already been reverse engineered from the popular retro games.Things like GZDoom, FSP creator, The Force engine, etc (there are hundreds of them), all have multiple forked projects to suit many needs. They essentially allow you to quickly/easily create a game (without coding) and retrofit it with modern particles, animations, 3D models, HD textures, sounds, graphics, maps, dialogue etc. The end result is a polished, decent (tried and tested) game with your own content and story-line with little effort or learning involved (mainly just drag-and-drop), all upgraded from the original with the addition of modern DirectX effects, lighting, shadows and shading (you can enable/disable them to your liking) - the major downside is that you are restricted to making only the one style of game supported by the engine but the upside is that they are reliable, quick, easy and will run on older systems. Another branch is something like Ren'Py - pretty sure it'll run on any machine, you just need to be creative and spend time with it. Although working in one style only is restrictive, it has the advantage of honing your skills and familiarity to a single workflow - they also have huge online communities and support forums. Another option are the so-called "Fantasy-Consoles" which are entire retro-console game-engines in one simple package - such as Pico-8 or GBstudio etc - which can be run on PC/Linux/Mac and even retro hand-held consoles such as Gameboy or Menyoo, even Raspberry Pi.


annedai
Registered User
Quote
2023-12-12 12:37:47

Dark Basic Pro is DX9, I believe.


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